I was hopeful for the headline, but then the actual post meandered around different ideas. Phoebe Bridgers runs the venue and has the power to throw people out if they don't obey. That's not a social rule, that's just a rule enforced by real consequences. It doesn't tell people it is unacceptable to film concerts, it tells them that it is a specific rule at a Bridgers concert that you can't do that.
On the other hand if you tell someone to turn off a television program in a diner and they ignore you, then you can't kick them out. Only the diner owner can do that. Or for airline queuing, I've seen the "everyone clumps up and comes in at once", but I've also seen "the airline tells everyone to line up according to a specific order and boards them in that exact order". The airline has the full power to do that if they want. Shanghai Disneyland had to shove everyone in a single person wide funnel so it's impossible to line jump... but they could do that and did.
And here's something really interesting. I noticed something new on the comment box for this post, something I've never seen before. It's a dropdown called "The Argument reply rules".
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The Argument reply rules
We welcome strong and even harsh disagreement but personal attacks or gratuitously offensive language will be deleted and repeat offenders barred from commenting.
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So people behaving rudely will be kicked out of the venue, even if they paid to attend. Sounds an awful lot like a Bridgers concert!
Is the real lesson here not that random bystanders should be more aggressive in staging social inteventions, but that venue owners and managers should be more aggressive in enforcing actual rules to make life easier for all the regular users?
I think it requires both. These are meant to be shorter so I try and restrict myself rather than turning this into a full piece but it’s very difficult for venue owners to enforce rules on their own. They often rely on the social pressure of others to maintain compliance when staff aren’t there or observing the failure—this really broke down during covid which coincided with the anti-Karen moment which vilified but productive and unproductive public shaming.
For the record, I support Black Friday having a special carve out whereby shoppers are free to act like savages. And if eyewitnesses use their phones to capture the bedlam on video, so much the better!
People violating noise ordinances or other laws by being obnoxiously disruptive in public spaces don't deserve to be tossed in prison, but they should be subject to lesser sanctions such as being evicted, ticketed, or temporarily banned. At least in America, asking people to be considerate is going to be more impactful if supported by genuine consequences; they just need to be proportionate to the gravity of the offense.
Get me a solution to the inefficiency of people holding spots in advance of arrival. Pool lounge chairs at resorts, parking spaces while a friend circles around and on and on.
The resort posts a sign saying "no holding spots" and gives you permission to simply take over a held spot, reassuring you that if there's a conflict the resort will side with you ignoring the holding. That's the solution.
I was hopeful for the headline, but then the actual post meandered around different ideas. Phoebe Bridgers runs the venue and has the power to throw people out if they don't obey. That's not a social rule, that's just a rule enforced by real consequences. It doesn't tell people it is unacceptable to film concerts, it tells them that it is a specific rule at a Bridgers concert that you can't do that.
On the other hand if you tell someone to turn off a television program in a diner and they ignore you, then you can't kick them out. Only the diner owner can do that. Or for airline queuing, I've seen the "everyone clumps up and comes in at once", but I've also seen "the airline tells everyone to line up according to a specific order and boards them in that exact order". The airline has the full power to do that if they want. Shanghai Disneyland had to shove everyone in a single person wide funnel so it's impossible to line jump... but they could do that and did.
And here's something really interesting. I noticed something new on the comment box for this post, something I've never seen before. It's a dropdown called "The Argument reply rules".
===
The Argument reply rules
We welcome strong and even harsh disagreement but personal attacks or gratuitously offensive language will be deleted and repeat offenders barred from commenting.
===
So people behaving rudely will be kicked out of the venue, even if they paid to attend. Sounds an awful lot like a Bridgers concert!
Is the real lesson here not that random bystanders should be more aggressive in staging social inteventions, but that venue owners and managers should be more aggressive in enforcing actual rules to make life easier for all the regular users?
I think it requires both. These are meant to be shorter so I try and restrict myself rather than turning this into a full piece but it’s very difficult for venue owners to enforce rules on their own. They often rely on the social pressure of others to maintain compliance when staff aren’t there or observing the failure—this really broke down during covid which coincided with the anti-Karen moment which vilified but productive and unproductive public shaming.
For the record, I support Black Friday having a special carve out whereby shoppers are free to act like savages. And if eyewitnesses use their phones to capture the bedlam on video, so much the better!
agreed! I made a relevant argument about the in-between things here: https://thepursuitofliberalism.substack.com/p/the-over-delegation-problem?r=n8nwg&utm_medium=ios
People violating noise ordinances or other laws by being obnoxiously disruptive in public spaces don't deserve to be tossed in prison, but they should be subject to lesser sanctions such as being evicted, ticketed, or temporarily banned. At least in America, asking people to be considerate is going to be more impactful if supported by genuine consequences; they just need to be proportionate to the gravity of the offense.
Get me a solution to the inefficiency of people holding spots in advance of arrival. Pool lounge chairs at resorts, parking spaces while a friend circles around and on and on.
The resort posts a sign saying "no holding spots" and gives you permission to simply take over a held spot, reassuring you that if there's a conflict the resort will side with you ignoring the holding. That's the solution.